Arctic, 90 Billion barrels of oil?

[Gneisenau]

Originally Posted by BaldEagle

The need for more refineries is debatable. On a seasonal basis government requirements for reformulated gasolines (which are all different) do create shortages but sufficent capacity exists to meet current needs.

.....

I think we need more refineries. Our present capacity is enought to meet present demand, but that doesn't include unforseeables. Unrequested plant outages can wreak havoc on supply, and the fact that a lot of our capacity is in southern coastal states which makes them targets for hurricains doesn't help any. Even planned outages can wreak havoc when considered along side unplanned ones. Planned outages are planned years in advance and difficult and costly to stop one the plans are put in place. They also are usually scheduled yearly or every other year for a refinery. Turn arounds can take anywhere from 2 weeks to months depending on what is planned. That's really a lot of down time when you think about it and that's when it's planned. Unplanned ones usually go from a min of week, (If it was a minor problem that brought down the refinery) to months if the problem was severe like an explosion.

[Gneisenau]

Originally Posted by Kamrooz

There are ways man...Such as the hybrid Electric/Gasoline powered vehicles. Battery powered at first, once depleted, switches to gasoline. But we don't even have to use gasoline, we could use a Ethanol 85, or other alternative fuels besides gasoline. Most people going to work won't be driving large distances. So realistically atm, we'd be looking at 40 miles on a electric based hybrid, with that mileage improving down the road as battery technologies improve. That would mark a HUGE impact on our global emissions from vehicles, and solar/wind/nuclear can cut our reliance on oil and make us energy independent. To charge, just plug them into a normal socket. We could use Nuclear as a means to offset all of this, as well as solar/wind...Even the possibility of mounting 2-3 solar panels on a roof of a car can help in longevity in mileage with electric based vehicles. The problem lies in mass energy storage...

DailyTech - Bright Ideas Fuel Grid Storage Technology Taking Off

Now this isn't a solution right off the bat, I'm just linking it as a means to state that creativity can breed off anything...It will just take some time till we have a technology for energy storage...and once it is acquired, we have no reason not to go fully 100% eco friendly in terms of power generation for our vehicles and electric use.

There are ways of getting on energy independence, but it takes thought and creativity...Just saying it isn't possible won't get us far. Now I do agree the favor of such a move is stacked against us, but this is America...Anything is possible if we put our minds to it.

I'm not saying it's not possible. I know it is possible. What is not possible is doing it tomorrow or probably even in a decade. I just don't think it would responsible to decide we weren't going to tap new oil because one day in the future we won't need it any longer. If we knew when and knew it was close and the present sources would get us there, then that's one thing.
Even if someone developed a new car that was cost effictive tomorrow that didn't even use gasoline, it would take years to get it on the streets, and then it would take many more years to replace all the existing cars with that new design. I say go ahead and do it, but realize we have to support people for decades to come using their cars that are on the road today. Look how old some cars are that are on the road today.

[verndewd]

That oil wasnt just found, its been known about for decades. I can show you conspiracy seminars from the 80's to prove it. Its been known about since the late 70's when there was another gas issue.

People believe the murdoch rockerfeller media wayy to much.

I wonder how many cards these power mad elite fawkers will lay down that will continue to validate the hard work of decent people ,patriots to the constitution ; who have been telling people for a hundred years or better what is really going on.

There is more to this oil news as well. Ill just wait till the marionette masters play their cards for the masses to gain their undying loyalty.

[Kamrooz]

Originally Posted by Gneisenau

I'm not saying it's not possible. I know it is possible. What is not possible is doing it tomorrow or probably even in a decade. I just don't think it would responsible to decide we weren't going to tap new oil because one day in the future we won't need it any longer. If we knew when and knew it was close and the present sources would get us there, then that's one thing.
Even if someone developed a new car that was cost effictive tomorrow that didn't even use gasoline, it would take years to get it on the streets, and then it would take many more years to replace all the existing cars with that new design. I say go ahead and do it, but realize we have to support people for decades to come using their cars that are on the road today. Look how old some cars are that are on the road today.

I agree with you on that...It would be difficult but possible. I didn't intend for it to sound like that I was instigating you didn't believe it wasn't possible...Just the ideal that even if you do support the cause and that idea crawls through your subconscious, it does hurt the effort.

But I do agree, In regards to the battery topic I was bringing up before, we all have power outlets...If we took an approach to ensure all new vehicles supported battery technology in a hybrid fashion, it would set the trend to retire the older vehicles as time went by....There are also conversion kits that can be had for around 200-400 dollars to transfer current engines to a green ethanol based fuel....But let me state ethanol isn't the greatest solution considering what it is doing to our food prices coupled with the high costs of oil/gasoline....Also the fact that sugar based ethanol provides 7x the power of corn, and the fact that it takes a lot of energy to make corn ethanol doesn't help either. It's a tough situation I agree, but the possibilities are there if we put our minds to it.

Of course, gasoline will not be vanishing anytime soon, too many cars on the road. But switching to electric hybrids in all new productions will have a huge cut in global emissions since most people don't commute long distances to work anyways. E85 can help for the 2nd powered source, or gasoline as is since it would take a long time to adopt. Synthetic fuels are under research using microbial methods..There are lots of options..But as stated before, I agree we are jumping into things a bit fast...These technologies will help WONDERS when they are developed within the decade. But jumping into something too fast can hurt us as well, as I do agree with your points.

But there are transitions we can make today that would help transfer the reigns to these newer green technologies. Personally..I believe the battery hybrid idea would be the best route at first, couple that with solar, wind, and/or nuclear to offset the electricity needs, and we cut a huge chunk of our carbon emissions. What would be incredibly well constructed, would be a hybrid Electric/Hydrogen fuel vehicle. There have been research and actual progress in hydrogen producing stations that are placed within a home. Such as this..

Company Unveils Home-Based Hydrogen Refueling Station : Gas 2.0

Although the output is relatively low for 25 miles worth of hydrogen...But it would 100% cut independence off gas. Couple this with new vehicles purchased and you have a home based source of energy for your vehicle. Although a DRASTIC hit to the gasoline industry...gasoline stations would have to convert half their pumps, or become hydrogen distributors as older gasoline vehicles roll off the streets with time. But honestly. This is an issue in itself though as MASS hydrogen development for for large quantities of vehicles becomes an issue. The best bet would be safe forms of fuel that pump in the same method as gasoline, such as synthetic fuels...We wouldn't have to change our infrastructure at all considering it could be pumped in the same method as our current gasoline stations...But emissions is still an issue, depending on how/what the synthetic fuel is being made of.

Tough topic though, all technologies in their infancy, I do agree with you on the decade or so before it becomes widely feasible...But if we at least start off by going hybrid electric, with an implementation of solar/wind/nuclear in our power arsenal...It will start everything off. One fact though is, a portion of Americans will be REALLY ticked off if we go all electric, hydrogen, or other similar green fuels...Let's face it, we're in America...And guys love their horsepower and gas guzzling/roaring engines....lol.

[Ches111]

GNE,

My point was there are technologies that can make an immediate impact to our usage.

But to truly fix the issue there is going to have to be a war fought on ALL fronts, wind, solar, coal, oil, natural gas, hydrogen, some new tech not yet thought of, ...

This is why I do nt mind the off-shore drilling as long as it is responsible. We will HAVE TO continue on our current path for some time (as stated) but I laugh at the folks who think that there is an overnight solution.

I really laugh at the media who SPIN the "we won't see a result from this for 8 - 10 years". So you are saying that this is a medium to long term methodology and you are not willing to wait .

So the artificial taxes on big oil are a now thing right? It will make a huge difference in the short term right?

I like the ostrich approach being served up by the media.. Stick your head in the sand do nothing (cause it may tick other special interest groups off) and hope it goes away. Great approach!!

[Gneisenau]

Originally Posted by Ches111

GNE,

My point was there are technologies that can make an immediate impact to our usage.

But to truly fix the issue there is going to have to be a war fought on ALL fronts, wind, solar, coal, oil, natural gas, hydrogen, some new tech not yet thought of, ...

This is why I do nt mind the off-shore drilling as long as it is responsible. We will HAVE TO continue on our current path for some time (as stated) but I laugh at the folks who think that there is an overnight solution.

I really laugh at the media who SPIN the "we won't see a result from this for 8 - 10 years". So you are saying that this is a medium to long term methodology and you are not willing to wait .

So the artificial taxes on big oil are a now thing right? It will make a huge difference in the short term right?

I like the ostrich approach being served up by the media.. Stick your head in the sand do nothing (cause it may tick other special interest groups off) and hope it goes away. Great approach!!

OK, so we are thinking alike. Drill for oil now, invest in new tech, and sometime later it all works out. We have new and better power sources, and we no longer spew dead dinosaurs out our tail pipes. It's a win/win.

I guess I find it irritating that somehow our government feels it can develop this plan themselves. Why they can't involve the businesses that know what they are doing is beyond me. Each side has it's bias. That's why you get everyone together to make a good plan. A plan solely from one side is doomed to screw us all.

[tool_462]

I've just been holding back my dark matter reactor until the next presidential campaign is over. Don't want Bush to have access to the technology I have created.

[prozac26]

Originally Posted by Scubageek

Look alternative energy production is at least 10 years off, if we are seriously lucky and put some money into it.

People will say that in ten years, and ten years after that. If we keep saying this, "alternatives" will never come.

[Kamrooz]

Originally Posted by prozac26

People will say that in ten years, and ten years after that. If we keep saying this, "alternatives" will never come.

Indeed, procrastinating doesn't help. We need to do what we can do now, solar, wind, and nuclear plants....Hybrid electric vehicles will offer the least amount of effort in kick starting this change on the automotive side imo.

[Gneisenau]

Originally Posted by tool_462

I've just been holding back my dark matter reactor until the next presidential campaign is over. Don't want Bush to have access to the technology I have created.

Bah, Darkmatter reactor. Wait until the world beholds my zero point module.

[Gneisenau]

Originally Posted by Kamrooz

Indeed, procrastinating doesn't help. We need to do what we can do now, solar, wind, and nuclear plants....Hybrid electric vehicles will offer the least amount of effort in kick starting this change on the automotive side imo.

I gotta say I have my doubts about hybrids. The batteries just generate an awful lot of pollution. Both at manufacture and end of life. Even if we fixed the end of life part through recycling, the manufacturing part is a mother.
I really would like to see more hydrogen powered cars myself. But, hybrids will probably have to come first. We'll just have to deal with the clean-up.

[Kamrooz]

Originally Posted by Gneisenau

I gotta say I have my doubts about hybrids. The batteries just generate an awful lot of pollution. Both at manufacture and end of life. Even if we fixed the end of life part through recycling, the manufacturing part is a mother.
I really would like to see more hydrogen powered cars myself. But, hybrids will probably have to come first. We'll just have to deal with the clean-up.

Hydrogen would be nice, but batteries atm seem the most logical considering our situation. Already built upon a infrastructure we have, just charge it up when your home...Compared to creating more hydrogen stations, or the need to bundle home based hydrogen production equipment into the costs of buying a new car. Energy consumption will rise obviously, solar, wind, and nuclear can offset that in a cleaner capacity.

Of all the choices, battery hybrids would have the quickest, and cost affective approach to cleaning up our oil addiction and c02 emissions in a quick manner. Until technologies improve in other fields to take over...All technologies have a weakness, but atm...It's pretty much our only choice...The GM Volt imo has the best idea for now, Hybrid electric, and the choice of E85/Bio-diesel or gasoline.....The best choice considering the current standing in our power sources and feasible options for a quick start up. Unless you own a restaurant and make french fries or other fried related foods, then just take that oil and filter it, convert your car to run off vegetable oil, and boom..free fuel ^_^.

[SuperFly03]

A few points:

1) You aren't going to get the average person into a car that runs on pure electric

What happens when you run out?

2) There is no good alternative for cars now nor in the foreseeable future.

Oil is what it is, cheap, convenient, plentiful (for now).

All this green crap really bugs me. Not because it is inherently evil but because of all the politics and agendas people have.

Yeah it may be nice to reduce our power usage or carbon footprint but if it isn't economical it isn't going to work. I'm not going to go out of my way to pay more for a car because it uses less gas because I'm going to get two things: less power and a much larger bill.

People tend to blow this out of proportion, I think.

Until they get me everything I can currently get and reduce the premium... I'll stick to my gas guzzling ways.

[BaldEagle]

Originally Posted by Gneisenau

I gotta say I have my doubts about hybrids. The batteries just generate an awful lot of pollution. Both at manufacture and end of life. Even if we fixed the end of life part through recycling, the manufacturing part is a mother.
I really would like to see more hydrogen powered cars myself. But, hybrids will probably have to come first. We'll just have to deal with the clean-up.

Hydrogen isn't ever going to make it as a viable alternative. Moving shipping and storage of the massive amounts of hydrogen needed for a Hydrogen powered car infrastructure entails considerable risk. It's only a matter of time before a hydrogen accident occurs. Split open a 25,000 gallon rail car to mix directly with air and you'll have a new appreciation for the BIG BANG theory. You though the Ford Pinto went up in flames fast with a rear end collision then just rupture that hydrogen tank.

Hybrids are the technology on the way to total battery power. When they get to the point they can charging a battery powered car to go 400 miles in 10 minutes it's a done deal game over for gasoline. I don't expect it to happen for 20-30 years as it's going to be a new battery technology coupled with ultracapacitors to provide better energy recovery and fast recharge rates.

[Ches111]

My perpetual motion engine will revolutionize the world!!

Shhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!